Cary Snow: 0:13

Welcome to the Big Letdown. I'm Cary Snow.

TJ Rains: 0:18

And I'm TJ Rains. Today we're starting a special two-part series that dives deeper into the profound impact of job loss, expanding on our previous episode about stigma.

Cary Snow: 0:27

You know, after that stigma episode we received an outpouring of messages from listeners who connected deeply with our discussion. What became clear was that we need to explore more thoroughly and how job loss isn't just about losing a paycheck, but also losing everything kind of all at once, kind of just everything just disappearing in an instant.

TJ Rains: 0:50

You know, what many people don't realize about it until they experience it firsthand is that employment provides so much more than just financial stability. That's a big part of it, but it's not the only part, for sure.

Cary Snow: 1:01

Yeah, we briefly touched on what researchers like to call the latent functions of unemployment. It's all those invisible benefits we get from working that suddenly, in an instant, just disappear when we lose our jobs.

TJ Rains: 1:15

Yeah, and there's six of them really, and today what we wanted to do is focus on the first three. The next three will come in the next episode, but in this first part of the series we're going to focus in on the top three, which are time structure, social connections and collective purpose.

Cary Snow: 1:31

Right, then we'll continue the discussion in a later episode and we'll look at status, identity and regular activity and then together those six dimensions helps to explain why job loss could be so devastating on multiple levels.

TJ Rains: 1:46

It's like losing everything all at once and it's an important part of everybody's journey when they go through some form of job loss. So you know, let's start with the first major loss, which is time structures. Most of us spend at least eight hours a day, five days a week, at work, and many of us that chunk is much, much more, and that's a large chunk of our waking hours that just suddenly becomes unstructured when we lose a job. You know, when I went through a loss years ago, you know the the big impact of not having that time filled really made me think about you know, how do I approach my day, how do I start the day in the morning.

Cary Snow: 2:27

How do I end it in the evening? And and how do I approach all that time? Yeah, it's like you get into a rhythm, right, you have. You. You're waking up at a certain time, you go through your commute to work. You may have meetings every day. You got some type of breaks plan you know my personal breaks, lunch breaks, et cetera. You do all your tasks for the day and then you go home. Right, you get into that rhythm and then it's gone in a second. One day you're doing this, the next day you're kind of your head's spinning.

TJ Rains: 2:50

Yeah, no doubt, and especially when you come from a highly routinized work environment. The rhythm isn't just about productivity either. It's also about psychological wellbeing. Humans generally thrive with some level of predictable structure and it really helps us get through our day and it makes us feel grounded in what we're doing and, most importantly, it makes us feel secure. It makes us feel secure in what we're doing today and what we're going to be doing tomorrow, and you've got a bit of routine that kind of goes into the future and helps you plan not only for your day but for your month, for your year you know, for a decade maybe.

Cary Snow: 3:19

Exactly, and you know it's. It's funny because, as I look back at, you know, when I had got laid off from my job, you know, in full disclosure, I've been laid off from two jobs in my career and both were, you know, because of contracts or disagreements or something, and you know we just moved on. But I remember, after getting through that, that layoff, you know that first kind of week after you kind of process, what are we always doing? That first period after you go through that letdown, you lose your job. You're like, okay, I'm going to take time and reset, refocus, right, figure out what I'm going to do next, what direction. That's always. That is a natural response that you know. Say, nine out of ten of us, you know, go through.

Cary Snow: 4:04

So that first week is almost like vacation. Right, you're sleeping a little bit, you're going to get up, you're going to develop a new casual routine from your work. You're going to probably think about, oh, right, now it's nine o'clock, I would be doing X at work, but you're, okay, you're trying to figure out what your next step are. But then, as the weeks go along, you start getting unmoored. You start getting connected, disconnected cause you're not sure where things are going right. You start losing that routine. It does. It's not a vacation, it's just a level of uncertainties. It's, you know, and becomes a financial stress.

TJ Rains: 4:40

Yeah, and I think you, you start to understand that you, you've got to. You have to start putting your time in in some kind of a structured form in order to make progress with your, with your job search. But you know, just maintaining sanity during this time of of reshuffling of priorities and reshuffling of your structured time. So you know, it's a very common experience for many folks and the research is out there that backs us up very common experience for many folks and the research is out there that backs us up.

Cary Snow: 5:07

You know there's that, you bring that up and I know we dip in and out of higher education education and statistics, but you know it kind of these kind of drive home the point I found that time structure was a strong predictor of psychological wellbeing during unemployment. Right, it was, the psychological well-being was stronger than financial well-being and that's crazy to kind of think about.

TJ Rains: 5:29

Yeah, you know, the lack of time structure can really create some very challenging you know situations for folks psychologically, and so I mean this study really just reinforces that point that you know, during unemployment, you know, without that time structure you can kind of you can start kind of falling off the deep end and lose track of where you are and where you need to be. Financial strain, of course, will eventually catch up with you, but that lack of time structure could actually catch up with you a lot quicker.

Cary Snow: 5:59

Yeah, you know they, you know people, you know during that time they try to find meaningful ways to overcome these unemployment challenges and people often will swing between two unhelpful extremes. And I'm very guilty of this and I've known people who in situations who are also guilty of this is they go through completely unstructured days where they struggle to accomplish things. You wake up with the best intentions to get a, b and c d accomplished and you just struggle getting a accomplished. It just becomes frantic and you see yourself then kind of moving toward oh I should be job searching today and then you frantically doing that, you're just scouring job boards all day and it's kind of go your evident flow in between the two.

TJ Rains: 6:46

Yeah, neither are helpful in the longterm if they're not organized in some form of a structured approach to help you get to your end goal. And the unstructured approach can lead to feelings of aimlessness that you're not making progress to where you want to go, even even depression that can. That can really kind of drive folks deeper into that depression if they're already in so, while overscheduled approach quickly leads to burnout as well. Right, so I mean you've got to learn to balance the two Both are important Rather than taking a fully unstructured approach to your day. It's good to eventually get through that first week, know, as you said earlier. You know it's kind of. It could be a, it could feel a little bit like a vacation without a martini. What kind of vacation?

TJ Rains: 7:30

is that I don't know, I wouldn't call it one at all, but you've got to find that middle ground and, uh, you know, the unstructured approach, the over-structured, over-scheduled approach is really going to drive you to the edge. So that middle ground can be very helpful.

Cary Snow: 7:51

Right. So we talk about time and it's talking about you have to structure that time to provide yourself some type of stability but yet also provide yourself some type of flexibility. It's kind of crucial when you're trying to, you know, navigate unemployment. You know you want to. You guys got to restart. You had your structure when you were working. Now you're going to have to build a quickly build a new structure during this unemployment period and it's imperative that you try to build that structure as fast as you can, that new normal per se.

TJ Rains: 8:25

You get a week right. I'm going back to that story that you told us about your friend who says all right, we're going to give you a day when something bad happens. Yeah, I know that you had a good friend of yours who would basically draw you out and say get your stuff together. We got to fix this problem. Now my perspective is you get a week right. You get a week of vacation period, uh, pre deep dive work into, you know, getting on track with a job search finding and, and you know, moving into your next big come up. But you know, after that week you should have a pretty structured approach that you're using and so we'll go through. You know a couple ideas, uh, regarding, uh, how you can, how you can build that structure and why it is so important. Yeah, exactly.

Cary Snow: 9:13

When we talk about that shout out to my friend Gary we always say that we try to motivate ourselves to keep moving forward and don't stay stagnant. You're not going to progress by sitting still. And so we always say we give you a day, two days, three days, depending on the situation, to mourn the loss of what you're going through the job situation, and then it's time to pull yourself up and get moving and that's important, that you still keep moving forward. You know there was a study done and I'm kind of half-up, kind of figured how to quote this. There was roughly about 237 studies on unemployment found that having some form of time structure was one of the strongest protective factors against depression during periods of joblessness. Right, so building that structure, having that around you, can actually push back against the bouts of depression.

TJ Rains: 10:13

Yeah, and there was another study that was done oh gosh, it was 2020, and it was in the Journal of Applied Psychology and they found that unemployed individuals who maintain moderate time structures you know, not too far in one extreme versus the other, not too rigid, not too loose showed a significantly better mental health outcome than those who were at either of the extremes.

Cary Snow: 10:34

Right. So what it's really about is not just about keeping busy. That's not what we're saying. It's more about, you know, it's about engaging in activities that give you a sense of moving forward. Right, that's not what we're saying. It's more about engaging in activities that give you a sense of moving forward. That's basically what it's about.

TJ Rains: 10:52

Even when your career is temporarily on pause, you still need to keep moving forward and making those incremental steps where I think it's really important for us and it is definitely worthwhile to talk about some of the practical strategies for rebuilding time structure during your period of unemployment, Kerry. What has worked for you in your times of needing to define structure?

Cary Snow: 11:17

For me it was blocking out time and saying this is what I'm going to do during this time period. For me it was like saying, let's say, from when I wake up, at whatever, what I'm going to do during this time period. For me it was like saying, let's say, from when I wake up, at whatever time, I'm going to spend two or three hours doing job search, doing jobs, just searching out the jobs. I'm not necessarily applying for them. I'm going to build a list of jobs I know that fit what I'm looking for. I'm going to identify them, maybe bookmark them and pull them down, and then I'm gonna do that for me a couple hours.

Cary Snow: 11:49

That would take a break. I'm gonna walk away from it for a second, I'm gonna let that stress kind of settle. I'm gonna do something else that's productive, that's maybe not related to the job search, and do something else and I'm gonna come back and then in the second round I'm going to start applying for those jobs or I'm going to start editing my resume or my CV to be able to apply for these jobs. So I'm going to make this a process and build, and slowly build, that structure and not feel like it all has to come down at one time, like I had to keep going through this repetitive motion of find job apply, find job apply, find job apply.

TJ Rains: 12:26

You see what I'm saying yeah, no, I get it and you know it's, it's. It becomes kind of a ritual. After after time it becomes your structured, a structured part of your day, and creating rituals can be really helpful.

TJ Rains: 12:36

You know, consistent morning routines, regular exercise, uh, putting some dedicated time and space, uh for different activities you know some activities that you haven't had time for in the past due to the fact that you were caught up in your career, working a nine to five or well beyond the 48 hours per week that most do Right.

Cary Snow: 12:55

You know, I the one thing I did was, during that time when I would take a break and do something for me, I went outside for a walk. You know, my office in my house was in my basement, didn't have any windows and so I wasn't really getting natural sunlight and so I was like, let me just get out of my office, let me go for a walk. So I would do. I pulled down, you know, the jobs I would go for, search and pull down those jobs and then I would go for a walk. Because that job search is just, can become monotonous, it can always become demoralizing. Because you start looking at jobs at the moment like, well, I feel I could do that part or I am qualified for that those two bullet points. But that what I'm not too sure of that you start questioning, should I actually apply for this job? Because you start, you know, self-doubting yourself.

TJ Rains: 13:44

So that causes delays too, right, yeah, indeed. So I mean when and when you continue to, if you continue to delay without some kind of routinized approach to bring it back to the front, you know it could really impact the longevity of your, of your time out of, out of out of work.

Cary Snow: 14:02

Right and it's now it's about. It's really about a balanced approach, right, and as you talk about, say, a balanced approach, I think it's important to acknowledge that rebuilding structure takes time. It's not going to be instantaneous. You're not going to have that structure back. It took you a while to get that structure at the job. It's going to take you the time to get that structure outside of the job as you're looking for something else. So you know the first few weeks of unemployment often can be chaotic and the process of change right and dealing with all your immediate concerns that hit you. But know that every day you should be building out something. You know in that new structure.

TJ Rains: 14:44

Yeah, I think it's just to kind of, you know, cap things off on structured time here. You know it's really important, you know, to give yourself a little bit of time up front to kind of get eased into this new reality that you're sitting in, where you know your time structure is not defined by an outside party. You know your time structure is not defined by an outside party. Your time structure is purely defined by you and how you are planning to approach the work ahead and evaluating opportunities, selecting the opportunities that you want to apply for and moving forward. But the overall structure for your days, for your work, it falls to you to define. Right, and so give yourself a week, give yourself a little vacation break, grab a martini, chill out in the back.

Cary Snow: 15:29

That, martini, I'm telling you.

TJ Rains: 15:31

Anyway, it's really about just setting up what that time looks like and how you could be most effective in your job search and being willing to commit to it, making sure that you have time also set aside for wellbeing. You know wellbeing and personal care is is critically important. So we're we're going to move on to the next item so that we can we can keep this, this rolling. So our second major loss is social connection. So when you lose your job, you also lose daily contact with the colleagues, the clients, the professional network that you've worked so hard to build over the years, and that's truly impactful.

Cary Snow: 16:04

Right, yeah, yeah, you know. They say that the average American adult spends more time with coworkers than they do with their friends and family. I mean, you think about it 24 hours a day, which is going to break this down? Eight hours you sleep, eight hours you are at work. Those other eight hours aren't always spent with your family and friends. It's broken out. Some people extend their eight hour days longer. You go home and have to do some work for your job once you get home, so that's a lot of social interaction that suddenly disappears right, yeah, and going back to the title, here you're losing everything all at once.

TJ Rains: 16:46

It's not just about the quantity of those interactions, it's about their quality and the nature. These unique social experiences that you have through your day are aligned with a lot of intellectual pursuits, collective work towards a common goal, et cetera. I mean, there's a lot to these social connections in the context that they're and it's it's difficult to replicate that elsewhere.

Cary Snow: 17:10

You know it's it is, but you know I agree with that and there's a lot of also to ask for this. There's a lot that goes into also shared experience, right and understanding your coworkers, getting understand your coworkers. You get specific challenges in your industry, your organization, in a way that even close friends outside of the field may not right. You interact with them. Your work becomes your life. You have those interactions at work. You go through those crises at work. You go through those good and bad times at work. You leave work. You're still interacting with them and then, once again like we've said this many times it ceases, it stops. You lose that connection and that social interaction which is important.

TJ Rains: 17:53

So I can't even pronounce his name. This is going to be. I'm sorry, mark, but Granovetter, mark Granovetter, let's go with it. I think that's good, mark. If you want to call, we can schedule a time and we'll do an interview with you.

TJ Rains: 18:12

We're always looking for new guests to interview, but anyway, Mark, your work on the strength of weak ties really showcases that workplace connections represent an essential type of relationship that bridges our close personal networks and broader society. You know, it really comes down to the fact that many of these relationships that we have in the workplace would likely have not been formed out if we weren't working for the same organization. Right, so it expands your view and your perspective and you're able to work with folks who have a significantly different perspective on the world. Their worldview is different and that really helps provide kind of a tighter view into the differences that make this world great.

Cary Snow: 18:55

Yeah, these workplace connections serve a unique psychological function right, they aren't easily replaced by non-work relationships. Function right, they aren't easily replaced by non-work relationships. And that's what it is, especially if you have so much time invested in that job. Right, you've built that space, that psychological space, and then when you don't have it, it's not easily replaceable. People don't understand what you're saying or what you're going through in the process, because they haven't been in that space with you in that work environment.

TJ Rains: 19:28

Yeah, and then there's you know simply the routine of social interaction, right, the casual conversations that happen in the break room. You know a quick joke before a meeting and you know check-ins about weekend plans and whatnot. They a lot of. I'm pretty much an introvert, but when it comes down to small talk, I'm definitely not good at it.

TJ Rains: 19:49

I prefer to stay away from it as much as possible. But I'm telling you, it does have a non-trivial aspect to it. They contribute significantly to our sense of belonging and connection to the organization people, to this greater community, if you will, to the organization people, to this greater community, if you will, Yep.

Cary Snow: 20:07

Yes, it is that sense of belonging and I'm glad you said that and used that word. It is a sense of belonging and it's interesting to think about. So we came through a pandemic, right, a lot of people were working from home and when we were coming out of the pandemic, it was a time when people were still a lot of people were working from home and when we were coming out of the pandemic, it was a time when people were still a lot of people were still working from home. For a good moment. It was the norm to do, and those social interactions change when you're working from home.

Cary Snow: 20:38

Let's just take it from a standpoint of, maybe, somebody who works from home and they're by themselves in their house. They don't have a significant other or children live there, they live alone, whatever. And they depended on those social interactions from working from home, from those Teams meetings or Zoom meetings or whatever they were, and talking and connecting over time. And then when they were gone, it didn't realize how much they depended on those interactions once they were gone, how significant they were.

TJ Rains: 21:07

Yeah, it's a social loss too, and it can be particularly acute and impactful for people whose lives don't have as much additional interaction. They may live alone. The primary social circle may be their workplace, and so when you lose that, I mean it could feel like you just lost your entire network in many cases, depending on how introverted, extroverted you are and how much outside of work interaction you get.

Cary Snow: 21:39

Yeah, absolutely. Look at people who have demanding careers. Right, they beat down that work clock week in and week out, but let's say they enjoy it. Right, they enjoy that part of it and could they build a whole primary community around that, around those interactions when it comes to work. And then when that disappears, right, they feel isolated. Right, they have spent maybe they work 10 hour work days or more, and they do that on a perpetual basis and they've done that for a long period and then it's gone. It's just a feeling of isolation comes.

TJ Rains: 22:18

Yeah, and you know, I'm glad you brought that forward because you know social isolation is a real issue that drives, you know, increased depression levels, et cetera. The research on this is really intriguing. The social isolation during employment, unemployment sorry, probably employment a little bit too, but during unemployment is linked to increased depression, anxiety and even physical health problems. And this is validated through the CARDIA study, which followed over 3,000 adults for decades, found that social disconnection during unemployment really does increase cardiovascular health risks by over 20%. That's pretty remarkable.

Cary Snow: 22:59

Yeah, there are studies out there and I know we always talk about different studies, but it's just grounding what we're talking about in reality and in factual numbers that people are looking at this that connections as a strong predictor of decreased well-being than financial strain. Right, and during that first three months of employment, that's where it's really hitting hard. Right, it's your well-being against that financial strain. You know, what makes this particularly challenging is that people often withdraw socially during unemployment precisely when they need to reconnect. When I was going through it, when I had a couple of through anger, and they're going through all that, and then they kind of fade away or disappear for a minute. And you're reaching out, you're trying to connect, telling you that they're worried, you know, because kind of lost, right, you're trying to try to figure out what is a new, new direction.

TJ Rains: 24:22

You just kind of withdraw from everything yeah, and you know it happens for a variety of reasons. There's a practical aspect of going out social activities cost money, right, you've lost your income as part of this, so that's going to tighten up during your period of unemployment. That's just a matter of how it is. And there's also that emotional component and having feelings of shame in the sense that you don't have, you know, anything positive to contribute or to share, and that that's not true, of course. But you know, when you've, when you've lost everything all at once and there's so many negative impacts, you know it kind of feels like the world around you is crumbling a bit.

Cary Snow: 25:03

Yeah, I've, I've. I've heard people, I've seen people heck, I've done it probably once or twice myself. People start to avoid social gatherings because they dread that inevitable question what are you doing these days? And they don't want to admit that they lost a job. You know, it's like. It's like going to that family union and asking when hey, when you're getting married, you know you don't want to, you don't want to be in front of that. You don't keep asking and ask these questions.

TJ Rains: 25:40

Well, even though, even though they're well-intentioned, you know they don't mean nothing, but it just makes you uncomfortable and you know folks come to you and they, if they know that you're without a job and whatnot all of a.

Cary Snow: 25:48

Are you doing today? Do you really want to?

TJ Rains: 25:50

engage in that kind of a back and forth. I mean feeling as if you know being without a job isn't hard enough. Now you've got to lay out what you're, what you are doing these days, and you know most people don't want to hear. You know, I've blocked out my schedule, so I'm really treating this job search like a full-time job. I mean you could go into that schedule. So I'm really treating this job search like a full-time job. I mean you could go into that. That'd be the worst conversation to have at a family reunion ever, I think.

Cary Snow: 26:13

Right, you know that's funny because I actually pictured that happening. You know, at a family gathering there doing that two-octave rage, and talk to you. It is uncomfortable. Right, those questions are uncomfortable. You try to deflect, you try to make it sound like, you know, on the outside you're oh, I'm doing great. You know, I, I got all these applications out and I'm about to get this, and on the inside you still have that dread and that worry. Uh, that's, keep, keep going. You got this, you got it.

TJ Rains: 26:46

Good for you, carrie, this you got it. Good for you, carrie. I'm so glad you're taking this with stride. Yeah, oh, my wife I have to jump on a story here real quick because my, my wife, who aisha and I were talking about it just the other day she's like, um, she's, she's, uh, very much a introvert as well, and she was.

TJ Rains: 27:04

She was in, uh, track and field and she did, uh, goodness, cross country running when, when she was in high school, and she said the worst thing about it was I'm exerting everything I have in me on this cross country race and I hear people clapping and yelling at me come on, you can do it, don't stop now. All she wanted to do was yell back in their face and say shut up, I am doing this, I will get it done when I'm ready. Just let me be right. And it was hilarious because, yeah, I I don't know if you remember, but my aisha and I have been together forever, like we went to high school together. I went to those cross-country meet and I saw her screaming at the audience who were trying to, trying to, trying to get her to move and and do the best that she could be, and she's like it does not help.

Cary Snow: 27:55

I'm going to call Othello. I know Aisha will slap me, fyi.

TJ Rains: 28:04

She'll hear it. She'll hear it, I'm pretty sure. But you know, it's just. You know we were looking at the stigma episode, you know, and that's really where we decided to move in this direction, to kind of take a deeper dive. And you know, in the stigma episode we discussed, you know that, you know, unemployment somehow also reflects on your worth right, your competence, your ability to make make a contribution, a positive contribution, to the world. And so you know, with that in mind, I mean you just have to, you kind of have to roll with it in certain contexts and whatnot, but the reality is that you do have worth, you are competent, you have capabilities. It's just you're in between jobs.

Cary Snow: 28:50

It's. It is a blip on the radar in a story that is your life. It is not the definition of your life, it's just a moment in your life and that moment may feel huge but yet it's still not, does not define, does not define it. So it's all. It's still about strengthening your social connections. It's not retreating from your social connections, it's strengthening them because those connections become your strength and kind of help you out. And you never know Within that people may hear things. If you withdraw too much and understand the necessary to withdraw, to kind of re-energize before stepping back out again, I understand that. But if you withdraw too much you might miss something in those connections. You know it's all about your psychological well-being during this job search.

TJ Rains: 29:36

Yeah, so let's talk about some strategies for how we go about doing that during these times. So how do people navigate this social disruption effectively?

Cary Snow: 29:44

That's a good question. I mean I would say, well, be intentional about scheduling regular social interactions right. Reach out, say, hey, every Thursday let's go out to lunch, let's go, let's meet for lunch. Or if you know you worry about finances because you can't go out the you don't have to go out, hey, let's just meet somewhere, sit down somewhere and kind of just be together, you know, outside your office, out away from your computer, away from that, whatever fits your financial structure. Let's go do. Do that every Tuesday, thursday, whatever, whatever the case may build, build that out.

TJ Rains: 30:24

Oftentimes, when folks get let go from, from an organization, uh, they try to hold onto those, those connections, those social, the friendships that have been built over the years and whatnot, and they come together for, let's say, a happy hour, and sometimes those happy hours turn into unhappy hours where you're just complaining about the place that you have been let go from or you are no longer a part of that.

TJ Rains: 30:51

At work I go back and forth on it a little bit because I think it's important to keep those connections, but you're transitioning from a work relationship towards a personal relationship and I think there may be some. It may set you back further if you just continue to dwell on the negative experiences and whatnot and come together with that group just to focus on those things. I don't think that's a healthy thing to do in the long run. But it does happen though, and I think it's acceptable to a certain point. But you also need to take into account that now you're no longer work colleagues. You may be in the same industry, you may be serving the same clientele and whatnot, depending on what your next come up is. But it's best to find those friendships that can be transitioned over into a true social personal relationship rather than that of just pure work.

Cary Snow: 31:43

It's interesting, I should say so, when I had my, when I had my you know my big letdown and left, left a previous job that I've talked about, um, there was another person who was also, uh, let go at the same time and her and I share a long connection, but it's all been a professional connection. Here's the funny thing about it we worked together as work colleagues at that job, but earlier in life, much earlier in life, I was actually her college instructor. I taught her in undergrad and then life happened and we became co-workers at this job. Now it was like 15 years later or so.

Cary Snow: 32:26

We became co-workers at this job and then, when we both got let go, we had that connection of I've known you for a long time, we've known each other for a long time, and that work colleague became somebody we could talk to outside. It built more. She became a social connection for me, I became a social connection for her, but we could sit down and actually just talk and share and get things off our chest, you know, and that that could be something you know to look into. You know we talk about also support groups, you know as well. One other thing that I've heard people do is. You know, there's a website you know called meetup and people are looking. We go on there and people look for people who have common interests. Maybe it's photography, maybe it's walking, maybe it's hiking, you know, maybe it's playing chess or something like that and they meet these people with these commonalities and build this new social structure to be that balance from that stress of trying to look for a job and redefining your career.

TJ Rains: 33:21

It helps to normalize the experience as well. You know they see others who are going through the same thing and compare notes on the challenges that they've felt throughout the job search, because there are a ton of ups and downs throughout this. You're going to experience rejection, you're going to experience a lot of uncertainty as well as you go through this, and you're not the only one right, and so by working with these groups, these meetups and whatnot can really help you just normalize that. This is happening not just to me, but it's happening to a lot of folks out in the field and there are ways that we can get through this. So you know it's really important to find your people and draw from them what you can to help your process out as well.

Cary Snow: 34:06

Right, it's all about. You know the value of shared experience, right, that's what it's about. And then, when you're going through this, it's important to know there are different types of social support during a period of unemployment or letdown, formational support. You know all these different types and you identify what is it that you need the most, what is the category, and then don't be afraid to seek it. Reach out to those that are important to you and say, hey, I'm struggling in this area and I need this support. Yeah, let's break that down a little bit. So the practical support can you speak a little bit more to that? Yeah, so all right.

Cary Snow: 34:49

So really, a proud script might be things like let's see. A proud script might be things like job leads, job leads or feedback on your resume. Emotional support could be something is having people who listen and validate your feelings. An informational support possibly could be let's see something like guidance or navigating systems Like how do I, how do I navigate unemployment benefits? How do I apply for unemployment? What are the things out there that can help me during this unemployment process? Or, you know, maybe even somebody helped me give you job searching strategies.

Cary Snow: 35:21

I remember you know I'm working on my resume and my CV and I'm looking at it and I just don't understand. So I actually, you know, I needed an informational support. So I asked somebody who was high up at their particular job. I said, could you look at my resume and tell me what's the problem? And they started talking about algorithms. You know, when you submit your resume into a system, an algorithm will start pulling your resume. So it's all about word choice and stuff like that. So that really helped me really go back and look at my resume and kind of fix it. So that type of support or guidance you know you may need.

TJ Rains: 35:57

And you can get different types of support from different relationships in your life, like Aisha, for instance. Provided she's my wife, she provided an amazing amount of emotional support during my time in that space. And then you have former colleagues who can offer practical job leads, folks who are working for companies in the same industry that may be hiring for roles that you would be a great connection for. So there's a lot of your social network that can be applied to help you define your next stage forward.

Cary Snow: 36:32

Exactly, and the key is being kind of intentional, right and build out and maintain those networks. Those networks you know, provide all the support, whatever the types they are. Provide all that support. You need Just be intentional about it.

TJ Rains: 36:47

Yeah, and research by Dr Connie Wanberg from the University of Minnesota helps really support this as well. She found that unemployed individuals who intentionally cultivate these types of support have significantly better mental health outcomes and actually found reemployment faster. I can totally see that right. If you think about the process that everybody goes through when applying for positions waiting to hear back, taking that feedback, going through the interview process, waiting for that feedback, et cetera you know it's helpful to have a support system in place where you can vent some of the challenges that you're feeling, and it will help you not just pile them up and then just feel like the world is just crumbling.

Cary Snow: 37:31

Right.

Cary Snow: 37:32

And it's, it's all about having a diverse source of support, right, because there is a such thing called it's a such thing called job search fatigue, and many people probably have been through that, and it's the state of just of emotional exhaustion that often sets in, you know, during the search. I mean, I got it. You know you apply for so much. You're tired of that window of waiting, of when are they going to respond, and then you get the message and let's say the message is the negative and you get that thanks, but no thanks. You just get tired and you get beat down.

TJ Rains: 38:20

You get that exhaustion, that fatigue, yeah. So I found it interesting that some of the research here also showed different types of support were more valuable at different stages of unemployment. Early on let's call it the vacation period right, emotion was most crucial. But as time went on, informational and that practical support just became increasingly important as you build out your time structure for your day and how you're going to apply your effort to get it, get your next, next job Right. I mean, it's that information, informational content that your, your friends and your network can provide, the practical supports that they can provide it as well, will drive you towards achieving your next goal.

Cary Snow: 39:03

And you're right, it's. It's we battle as human beings. We all can admit we brat. We battle against pride or shame that often prevents us from leveraging our social networks. We don't want to ask for help sometimes, we don't want to admit that we're struggling, sometimes, that we have moments of weakness, sometimes during these job loss. But research consistently shows that social support is one of the strongest protective factors against negative psychological impacts of unemployment.

TJ Rains: 39:36

Yeah, and when we come back from this break, we'll discuss the third major loss that comes with unemployment the loss of collective purpose. Stay with us.

Cary Snow: 39:50

Welcome back to the Big Letdown. Before the break, we were discussing how job loss impacts time structure and social connections. Now let's talk about the third major loss collective purpose.

TJ Rains: 40:02

This is such an important aspect of work that often goes unrecognized until it's gone. Work gives us a sense of contribution and, overall, contributing to something much larger than ourselves a collective purpose. Whether that's a company mission, serving customers, advancing the knowledge in the field, there's a variety of different ways that this can take form, but it's really working with a group to achieve a common goal and a collective purpose.

Cary Snow: 40:29

Right, and that sense of collective purpose provides meaning and direction. It helps answer the fundamental human question you know, what am I here for? Or how do I contribute Right, you know that's that's kind of what it's doing.

TJ Rains: 40:44

Yeah, and all humans have, you know, these basic needs a basic need for meaning and a basic need for purpose. We want to feel that our efforts really matter, beyond just making money and supporting our lives, that we're making a difference in some way to the lives of others.

Cary Snow: 40:59

Yeah, so it's. You know, I I was a teacher still work in education, but I was. I was a teacher for many years and people find their job is their primary source of meaning, kind of their primary sense of purpose. So, like, teachers are shaping, we're shaping young minds, we're shaping the future. The children are our future, as the song says right. Healthcare workers are improving lines, engineers are solving problems. Retail workers are helping customers find what they need. All of these roles connect individual efforts to a larger outcome.

TJ Rains: 41:38

And even in jobs that might not seem obviously purpose-driven, there's often a sense of collective accomplishment. You're part of a team working towards a key objective, a shared goal. You're celebrating the successes of others as you work together to accomplish those goals and solving those problems in a collaborative way.

Cary Snow: 41:58

Right, and then talking to you know some of our previous guests, you know off air and just having some you know conversations, you know someone would say you know what they missed. What they missed most wasn't the work itself. It was feeling that they were building something together with other people. Right, they missed the inside jokes, they missed the shared history, the collective challenges they would overcome, right. And then it was gone and they were just alone, just them, their laptop and applications, and that was it. That was the new definition of their life.

TJ Rains: 42:36

Yeah, it's super isolating at times, and so losing that sense of being a part of something bigger is quite impactful. But having a sense of being a part of something bigger than yourself is truly motivating in a very powerful way, and so research from the University of Michigan by Adam Grant and Jane Dutton shows that people who find meaning in their work report higher job satisfaction right, greater commitment and better psychological wellbeing.

Cary Snow: 43:02

Right, and you know, as we were kind of structuring this topic today and we were just looking up stuff to help support what we were saying, and I came across, you know, there's studies of that when people could connect their daily tasks to a larger purpose, whether they were serving customers or advancing knowledge or supporting their team they experienced a 34% greater job satisfaction and 27% lower burnout rates. Right, it's just crazy.

TJ Rains: 43:33

Yeah, I mean it's grafting a deeper level of connection between the employee and the employer, and so if you can connect your daily tasks to a larger purpose, all the better. So how this can inform your job search as well is just understanding what your purpose is During that vacation period, or whatever you want to call it up front, when you're trying to plot out your path, it's good to self-reflect a bit to determine you know what is your true purpose and how can you apply to positions at organizations where that purpose, the organization's purpose and your purpose are better aligned.

Cary Snow: 44:11

You know, the challenge during unemployment becomes finding or creating purpose right outside of traditional employment. You know how do we maintain that sense of contribution and meaning when you're not going to?

TJ Rains: 44:24

work each day, so let's talk about some approaches to do just that. How do people effectively rebuild or maintain a sense of purpose during unemployment?

Cary Snow: 44:34

You know, go back into. You know some of our previous episodes. You heard a lot about volunteering. Was a strategy, right, we heard that was one big one that was out there. You know it provides many of the same psychological benefits as employment. It provides structure, social connection and, importantly, that sense of contribution to something meaningful so you can decide where you want to give that time and that volunteering time can be the counterbalance to when you were like you are job searching, you need to take a break, you need to do something to realign, to make to realign yourself and do something meaningful yeah, and you know, volunteering in areas of your related field can have particular benefits to your job search as well.

TJ Rains: 45:22

you know, maintaining skills, building new connections, even leading to new employment opportunities. What I found very helpful, uh, during time I connected in with many of the organizations professional organizations that I had been involved in over the years but hadn't really had the time to dedicate to providing back, giving back to the community that had served me so well over the years. So, you know, during, during a time when I had the, the, the availability to give back, I chose to do so and it was very helpful and it kept me connected with the professional network that I'd built through my relationship with that organization over the years and it really helped me maintain a connection to the field.

Cary Snow: 46:05

Yeah, I, you know I I did some of that volunteering as well. I mean it was on a smaller scale but I kind of tripped and fell into that. I was asked to help to assist with some stuff, some nonprofit work, and you know, I did, and as I was doing that, I really was enjoying it because not only was it a sense of giving back but it also took my mind off of everything right and put things back in perspective of what I was doing, and it felt good at the end of the day it kind of was a slight recharge, uh, to get back up on that horse. And you know, and you know, keep, keep and keep pushing forward.

TJ Rains: 46:42

You know, another way that folks can can put in some some valuable time is to uh, set up purpose projects, right, these are self-directed initiatives that align your values, your skills, and this might be starting a blog, creating a podcast, right? Oh look, I wonder how this podcast is Developing a workshop or pursuing independent research in the field, so that you're actively contributing?

Cary Snow: 47:09

Yeah, you know, I would like we said a second ago early in our conversation, you know, pick a day, structure that into your daily routine or your weekly routine, whichever it is that you're going to give back. Where is your give back moment? Where is that moment that you're going to walk away and you're like I'm going to help somebody else? You know, hopefully your support unit is helping you. Now how's a way that you know you can help somebody else?

Cary Snow: 47:36

You know, and there's been a longitudinal study that was done by Corporation for National Community Services that found that unemployed individuals who volunteered at least two hours per week were 27 percent more likely to be employed a year later than those who didn't volunteer. And I look at that number right and part of that is because you're getting out and creating new social circles and new social connections with people that did not exist before and they see your work, they see your dedication and then maybe that somebody might come up to you and say, hey, I know somebody that may be able to help you because they are looking for X. You know.

TJ Rains: 48:17

Well, that's interesting, you know particularly. It's particularly interesting for people who've been unemployed for six months or longer, suggesting that volunteering may help counteract the stigma of long term unemployment that we discussed in our previous episode.

Cary Snow: 48:32

You've got to have kind of this self-directive approach right, your self-directed initiative on yourself. You got to get out there and align yourself with those who value your skills, and that might, like you said, be starting a blog or a podcast or something like that. It might be developing a workshop, it might be. You know, there's a lot of things out there that you can get going and get doing. You know, and I like this concept because it's about being or creating your own avenues for contribution, rather than waiting for an employer to provide the opportunity. So you start blazing your own path.

TJ Rains: 49:07

Yeah, it's like being an entrepreneur, you know, like our talk with Stephen, right, and the challenges that he ran through. But I mean you have to take a little bit of a different mindset when you're fully responsible for structuring out your time and really working towards this new goal. But these projects can serve multiple purposes, right. They keep your skills sharp. You're demonstrating initiative. You're doing much more than just sitting back, sitting idle in waiting for the opportunities to come to you right. It provides a sense of purpose and progression during your time in the unemployment cycle, right? So this is a time for reflection.

Cary Snow: 49:48

Like we said over and over, it's really a time for reflection about your purpose more broadly. It's sometimes that job loss can create that space to reconsider whether your career path is actually aligned with your deeper sense of purpose or your values. You take this time to really kind of step back. There is a lot happening. There's a lot that you have to juggle right.

TJ Rains: 50:11

Yeah, and this can become a catalyst for reevaluating, uh you know, what truly matters to you and what kind of work would be best, uh, for your, your future, and most rewarding, rewarding and meaningful.

Cary Snow: 50:24

Yeah, you know I I did take that time. Now, for me personally, that time of reflection came way later than I wanted to be. Let's say that it was not, you know, in the first few weeks that reflection came, after a lot of disappointment, where I finally was able to sit down with myself and be honest and kind of reflect where do I want to go, where do I want to be? How can I spin this to something a little bit more positive as a restart or rebirth? A lot of people start second careers. Is this one of those moments where I need to consider starting a second career? Do I need to explore that option and where do I want to?

TJ Rains: 51:05

go yeah, whatever that shift may be, it's not going to be easy, especially in a culture that often equates worth with productivity and career success. And when you're in this unemployment trap or you're in this unemployment cycle, it's easy for folks to kind of push you away. And so you've got to become more active and not take a less. What's the opposite of proactive, inactive stance. It's essential for maintaining psychological wellbeing during unemployment as well.

Cary Snow: 51:39

Exactly, and I think it's an important perspective shifting during unemployment, recognizing that your value and your purpose exists independently of your employment status. Right, you gotta it's. It's knowing your value, knowing your purpose, independent of what's going. What's going on.

TJ Rains: 52:03

It leads to an interesting question. You know, how might we as a society better support each other in maintaining purpose during periods of unemployment? You know it's a deeply important question. And on an individual level, you know we've talked about volunteering and personal projects. But what about, you know, more systemic approaches to help, you know individuals get better aligned for their future? Come up.

Cary Snow: 52:30

Yeah, it's going through that process. Yeah, it's going through that process. And you know, once again I'll drop a little research nugget for the quantitative fans out there. University of California found that people who could separate their sense of purpose from their specific job showed 41% better psychological resilience during unemployment compared to those who strongly identified their purpose with their career title. They tied it together.

TJ Rains: 53:06

In the United States, where identity is so closely tied to occupation which, by the way, this is not a worldwide phenomenon. If you've talked to folks from other countries and whatnot, their first question to you is often not what do you do for a living? It's a much more diminished part of the culture. But anyway, the idea that identity is so closely tied to occupation, the psychological impact of job loss is significantly greater than in countries where work is just seen as one aspect of one multifaceted identity.

Cary Snow: 53:40

Yeah, you know, and I've kind of looked into this a little bit you know, again talk about preparing to have this full on discussion today. There are some countries that have experimented with programs that combine skill development, community service and income support for the unemployed. They create structured opportunities for meaningful contribution while people are between jobs, right, and they kind of build that communal support in between the jobs jobs right and they kind of built that communal support in between the jobs.

TJ Rains: 54:17

Yeah, and organizations are doing this as well In a lot of ways. They're developing what are called purpose networks that connect unemployed professionals with nonprofits and community initiatives that can benefit from their experience or past experience and the value that they add in their day-to-day work.

Cary Snow: 54:29

These approaches recognize that unemployment doesn't have to be at a financial cost. Right, it doesn't just have to be financial, it's psychological and social costs too, and addressing only financial aspects just isn't enough.

TJ Rains: 54:43

Yeah, I see this a lot too, with employers who are offering supports to employees who have been impacted by a layoff or whatnot. They do focus on how to get their financial sustainability as being the primary item addressed, you know, as a support service offering, but you know there's so much more to it, as we discussed today, you know, helping to define like a time structure, helping employees understand what the next few months are going to look like in this job search. I think there is a role for employers here too. Companies conducting layoffs could do much more to help departing employees maintain that purpose and connection during the transition periods. I love the idea of creating networks that will help, you know, connect individuals who are laid off with volunteering opportunities to keep their skills sharp and keep them keep them in the game.

Cary Snow: 55:34

Yeah, absolutely. You know things like alumni networks. Now reach out to those Transitional projects that you might work on, mentoring opportunities that you might do. These could all help bridge that sudden gap between full employment and a complete disconnection. You know we talk about and we joked about. You know that first week of unemployment is kind of like a vacation. But you know, in reality unemployment is not a vacation.

TJ Rains: 56:04

It's a complex transition that requires rebuilding multiple aspects of our daily life simultaneously rebuilding multiple aspects of our daily life simultaneously, yeah, and you know what makes this especially difficult and challenging is that you're trying to rebuild these structures during a time of stress, uncertainty and, often, you know, marginal resources, both financial and emotional, and that's why you know, support is crucial during this time, whether from family, friends, professional counselor or support groups.

TJ Rains: 56:39

Having people who understand these multiple dimensions of laws can make a tremendous difference, and that's something that we all can provide, even if we're not employment experts Understanding that a job-seeking friend isn't just looking for a paycheck. They're missing structure, they're missing connection and oftentimes missing purpose, and that helps us to offer more meaningful support during their time of need.

Cary Snow: 57:01

That's a good point, and sometimes the most helpful thing isn't another job lead, it's an invitation to collaborate on a project or participate in a regular activity or simply just connect in a way that affirms their value beyond their employment status.

TJ Rains: 57:20

Authentic connection is so critically important in this as well. We're not going to push heavily on those types of connections where folks are upping the register and voice how are you doing? That's just not what we're looking for here. We're looking for real connection to help folks get past challenging time in their life. You can do that as a friend, you can do that as an acquaintance and just helping each other get through a challenging time. And so, as we wrap up this first part of our series, I think there's one more important point that we need to highlight here. These losses of structure, connection and purpose are universal. They affect everyone. They may affect everyone a little bit differently, but they affect anybody who experiences job loss, regardless of their industry, seniority and the financial circumstances. There may be other aspects of their life that allow them to take it a lot easier than others, but it will impact.

Cary Snow: 58:16

Yeah, it's irrelevant whether you're a CEO or entry-level worker. Losing your job means reckoning with these fundamental disruptions in your daily life.

TJ Rains: 58:28

In our next episode we'll explore the other three major losses that come with unemployment, status, identity and regular activity Together with today's discussion. They'll give us a comprehensive picture of why job loss truly means losing everything all at once, and how we can rebuild from that experience.

Cary Snow: 58:47

Yeah, until then, remember that these challenges, though profound, are also surmountable. Until then, remember that these challenges, though profound, are also surmountable. People rebuild structure, connections and purpose every day after a job loss, and understanding these processes is the first step toward navigating them effectively.

TJ Rains: 59:11

So thank you for joining us for this first part of our special series. I'm TJ Raines and I'm Kerry Snow.

Cary Snow: 59:14

And this is the Big Letdown. Outro Music Bye, thank you.