Speaker 1: 0:13

Welcome to the Big Letdown. You know, tj, today's topic really hits close to home for a lot of listeners and even for myself. We're talking about job loss and often there's an invisible stigma that comes with it. And I have to say, when I was kind of working on preparing for this episode, you know, pulling notes and some data points and kind of just reflecting on myself, it really opened my eyes to how widespread this issue really is.

Speaker 2: 0:57

Yeah, it's really crazy. It's something that really shocked me when looking through not the research that you pulled together, but some of the points that I went through as well. Really shocked me, when looking through not only research that you pulled together, but some of the points that I went through as well, is that, according to many, many of these studies, about three out of four American workers will experience some form of unemployment at some point in their career. And you know, look around your office, look around your friend group. Statistically, most of the people will face job loss at some point. That's a crazy statistic.

Speaker 1: 1:23

That is absolutely a crazy statistic, and what really struck me is that it isn't just affecting certain industries or even levels of experience. We're seeing this impact everywhere, from entry-level workers up to seasoned executives.

Speaker 2: 1:43

Yeah, I had a friend reach out to me the other day. I saw on LinkedIn that he had used the open to work sign on his account, which is an interesting conversation of itself as to why people choose to go that route and why people choose not to go that route. But anyway, I reached out to him just to get a good understanding as to what challenges he's facing. And he's a seasoned executive. He's been in the organization for 10 years and all of a sudden he's dealing with a significant change. He is basically without a job and he's looking for a new opportunity and he's big into education. He's got a very focused drive, work ethic, you name it and he told me he thought he was always immune to this. He thought that his track record would protect him from this type of a challenge, but it didn't, and you know that's always the common assumption, right?

Speaker 1: 2:40

We like to tend to think you know, our education, our experience, our track record, the more we have in those areas, will shield us from having to go through these letdowns and going through these. You know impactful changes that shake up our world, but the research tells a different story, right?

Speaker 2: 3:01

Yeah, it's like even having a college degree, which we often think of as job security, doesn't really protect against long-term unemployment. Organizations shift, they adjust based upon the market, and it really doesn't care whether or not you have a degree or 10, 20 years of experience. Everybody can be impacted by these types of challenges. The research shows that college-educated workers who become unemployed are just as likely to face long-term unemployment as workers without a degree. All right.

Speaker 1: 3:31

So let's take a beat. Let's break down what long-term unemployment means, because I think this is important for our listeners nearby to our listeners.

Speaker 2: 3:40

Yeah, totally. Long-term unemployment. In many of the studies that we've been looking at, means being unemployed for six months or longer. And here's where it gets really interesting the longer someone is unemployed, the harder it becomes for them to get back into the workforce at the same level. In particular, it's what research called the unemployment trap.

Speaker 1: 4:01

All right, let's take one more moment. So the unemployment trap? All right. So I think this is a crucial point for listeners. Talking about this, we're not just talking about temporary sex backs, we're not talking about anything of that nature. We're talking about something that is to be fundamentally altering to someone's career trajectory, right?

Speaker 2: 4:24

Yeah, and also psychological impact of job loss is something that goes way beyond just losing a paycheck and lose this fascinating concept in the research called the latent functions of unemployment. You want to break that down for us?

Speaker 1: 4:36

Yeah, let's do that, because it really helps explain why job loss hits so hard, even for people who are financially secure.

Speaker 2: 4:44

Yeah, right. So employment gives us five key things beyond income right, you get time, structure, social connections, a collective purpose with the people that you're working with, status, identity and regular activity. When we lose a job, we lose all of these at once, which has a massive impact on our daily routine and a massive impact on us personally and our families.

Speaker 1: 5:08

You know what I think is, you know, particularly relevant for our listeners. You know, you want to know.

Speaker 2: 5:15

I know you want to know. Yeah, sure, why not?

Speaker 1: 5:18

The stigma aspect right, Because this is something that is rarely discussed openly.

Speaker 2: 5:24

Yeah, and this is. We had a lot of conversations about the stigma of unemployment and specifically speaking to it openly, and I guess we're doing that pretty openly now. All right, well, let's go ahead and dive into it, because the research here is quite fascinating and, frankly, a bit disturbing. Studies show that employers are significantly less likely to call back applicants who are currently unemployed, even when their qualifications are identical to employed candidates. That really took me back a bit when at prospective employees, and I've had the same thought.

Speaker 2: 6:11

Right, is it better to hire somebody who is currently in a seat than somebody who is not in a seat? I think the rationale there is that individuals who are currently without a job are there for a reason, and that kind of sets this bias up at the beginning of any evaluation that they're not as good because somebody already kicked them out. Whatever that may be, and even if you don't know the whole story, a lot of folks are not even given the opportunity to interview for positions due to a gap, and that could be of their own doing, or could be the result of a massive layoff, or it could have been a firing. It could have been a variety of different things. But having that bias towards a negative perspective, I think doesn't do anybody any good.

Speaker 1: 7:05

Right, we just want that chance, right, we want that chance to explain, if there is a gap, where that gap came from. You know I, you know I had, you know we've all had. We talk about these letdowns and where they've come from. I've had, you know, we've. I've had a few in my, you know, in my career and you know, even though, even though, as we talked, we each highlighted a big one, that happened and those letdowns in my career led to some gaps. Some were a few months. I had one that was a year.

Speaker 1: 7:38

Both of them were more self-imposed, you know, more self-imposed. One was because my father had got ill and I wanted to take time to kind of be around, you know, him and the family and kind of reset with that. And another one happened because I decided that it was time to focus on some studies you know, being a school fan, writing dissertations and wanted to finish that. So you know, take that out, but we don't get the chance to explain it. And on the leadership side, on the organizational side, they just see the gap and assume and start assuming why that person has not been hireable, you know, in that space, and that starts building for the person seeking the job. What's wrong with me? I feel like I have all the credentials.

Speaker 2: 8:18

I feel like I have the education or the experience in the background, so that starts building that, yeah, the longer it goes we also have a harder chance getting back into the job market, right. So it becomes this cycle, right, and? And there has to be a way to break it. And I think there's a there's a need for the workforce to really begin opening up these conversations, because there there are stories behind gaps and you know you don't just leave a story untold, right, and it's hard to put that down in a resume. It's hard to it's hard. I have this gap because my father had cancer and I had to work with him. No, I mean, that's a little too vulnerable. Maybe adding it into, but I mean, would that help? I don't know. But there needs to be some openness to evaluating the reason for gaps.

Speaker 1: 9:10

You know, I was reading an article not too long ago and we were talking about recording this episode and I was reminded of this article. It was in the Harvard Business Review and the article was talking about the impact of job loss, how that affects everybody. I believe and if you're listening I apologize if I hack your name a little bit, but it was a Savania Falcon Candy Candy uh, wayne's uh article in Harvard business review Uh, they noted a, a framework uh in their theory, a theory uh by uh, david Rock, uh called scarf S, c A, r, f scarf, and the scarf stood for status, certainty, autonomy, relatedness and fairness. And Rock kind of looked at this as these are kind of a bedrock for people and when you have that sudden job loss, when you go through that loss or have those threats of loss, one of those or all of those or some type of combination of those gets threatened right.

Speaker 1: 10:23

And then you're working, trying to rebalance those five areas again. You're trying to rebalance your status, which looks at you know, your relative importance to yourself. You're trying to work on your, the certainty, your ability to kind of predict the future where you want to, where you want to go, your autonomy, your sense of control, your sense of self and decision, decision-making relatedness. When you kind of you kind of feel safe, you know you feel secure in what you're doing and in your world, your environment and, in fairness, you know your perception of your treatment, you know you're looking at that and then when you go through these moments, those things get rocked and you're trying to figure out how do I come back and balance those things.

Speaker 2: 11:30

You know, the psychological damage of unemployment is explained not only by the fall of economic means, but fundamentally by the elimination of latent categories that we described earlier. I think that's it's. It's not only impacting one aspect of your life, it's impacting all aspects of your life. A position where, in essence, you have to put everything back together in a way that's going to be temporary but sustainable for as long as you may need. It's a really challenging position to be in. It creates a bit of emotional distress, which is really where I want to go into next. So we're going to take a bit of a break here, but we're going to come back and we'll talk about the emotional challenges associated with job loss. Welcome back to the Big Letdown. Before the break, we were discussing the stigma of unemployment. Now let's talk a little bit about the emotional impact on individuals and their families when they find themselves in long-term unemployment.

Speaker 1: 12:40

Because what's important here is the maintaining of your mental health during unemployment. I mean it's crucial, yet it's challenging and research kind of shows a lot about why it is important and I mean some of it is. Yeah, we say research a lot, but go through a significant impact in your life.

Speaker 2: 12:59

you feel the trauma, uh, initially, until you can unpack it and determine a path forward. A lot, of, a lot of that stems from intense emotions that come along with it. Job loss can trigger a range of intense emotions like anger, betrayal, isolation, shame, hopelessness, and the severity really is based upon a couple different things your susceptibility to depression, first and foremost, and this can be a trigger that really drives folks over the edge. Foremost and you know this can be a trigger that really drives folks over the edge you know it's a disruption in your routine as well. Right, as an employee, you've got a job, you've got a role, you've got duties to perform right, and that really does take. It creates a significant portion of our life, for us, right. When you pull that out all of a sudden, you have a huge gap of available time and, of course, when you're on the job search, looking for a new gig and whatnot takes time. So it's necessary to have that space. But at the same time, how much space is truly needed? And a lot of times, having too much space just allows you to get into your head a little bit too deep and if you have any proclivities towards depression or negative emotional states, it can really create an environment where that just festers.

Speaker 2: 14:35

And yeah, I mean, I'd be lying if I said I never had any kind of depression based upon a setback. It's just part of the game. So you do have to have a little bit of self-compassion as you move through this. So the article one of the articles that we evaluate, and all these articles are going to be in the show notes too. So, please, if you'd like to read more about these, we do offer them up available. But self-compassion is really just to be a little bit extra gentle with yourself as you prepare for your next move. These are hard decisions and they're hard calls that you have to make, and also, you know it's not only about yourself. It's about maintaining social connections as well. So I'd love to get your thoughts about how your social connections can help really pull you out of a negative emotional state.

Speaker 1: 15:30

It's that jarring effect of sudden loss A lot of times. So let's look at this a little bit when that loss, the harder that loss hits is usually connected to your connection to the job or the organization. So you might be on the job, you might've found a job that you're saying. You know what. I came in here, I like what I do, I like who I do it with, I'm connecting with everything. This might be where I want to be for the duration. I might want to stay with this organization, just kind of move up through it or something. It might be something of that.

Speaker 1: 16:01

And you are planning, you're doing future planning. Where do I want to be? How do I want to do this? You may not want to go all the way up to leadership. You're happy where you are. You may want to go up to leadership, it doesn't matter, you're just connected to the job.

Speaker 1: 16:13

And then all of a sudden the next day, that hard stop, that change. Now the job has changed, it's different, it's not what it was yesterday, it's different today and you may be out of that job today. You may be feeling like you need to leave that job today because of a drawing effect and that will trigger some anger, the betrayal that we talked. If you were removed from your job unceremoniously, it might trigger that hopelessness right, and part of the reason is so is that you'll start detaching from friends and family because there might be shame setting in from that moment.

Speaker 1: 16:49

You've talked this job up, you've been there for a while or you've done stuff in your career to set yourself up to be in this position and all of a sudden you're not. But you cannot pull away from those core people around you. You know all it's going to do you talk about. If you're susceptible to depression and those negative aspects, it's going to sink further. So it's better to pour back into those, be surrounded by those and have them uplift you. We're not saying that. Don't go through the emotion, because it's almost like you're going to go through the steps of grief, because it is a loss and you just have to go through it. There is no time frame, but you need to move through it and you need those people around to support you as you go through those steps.

Speaker 2: 17:32

Yeah, I mean there are a few things that you can control in this situation, right, one of them is how you deal with it and how you rally your resources around you and help support your next step, your next move. So, accepting and self-reflection those are two elements that came out of the research, really driving folks towards acceptance of the situation. They can't change it, but there are things that they can change. They have the ability to reflect on the positive lessons that they learned throughout their previous position and prepare to move forward. I mean, there were plenty of lessons learned during your time. Just because you were let go from an institution, let go from an organization, does not mean that those lessons are gone. You've learned them, apply them and you'll be able to bounce back stronger.

Speaker 1: 18:28

There was another article that talked about psychological coping and job loss and in that article they stress the idea of adaptive coping and the adaptive strategies that you have to go through. And part of when we're looking at adaptive coping is, you know the strategies are coming from planning, building, social support, reevaluating. You know what has happened and what will happen and, as you said, you know, acceptance. There is even a level of self-destruction, you know, and to get in there to kind of pull you away from these moments a little bit, so you know you want to look at it.

Speaker 2: 19:14

What are you going to do? Are you going to join a ballet company? You're trying to distract yourself.

Speaker 1: 19:21

I'm going to figure out something to do with my life. You know cause I? You can't sit there, I can't just sit with the shades pulled. All the time I, a good friend of mine, tells me all the time. He says every time we go through something not just job loss, just something negative he says I give you two days of moping and then we will pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and we're going to figure out how to fix the problem.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Yeah, it's all about taking those proactive steps to regain control and the self-confidence that comes with that. When you take control, you build confidence, and I think that's an important aspect that folks tend to not rely on. Maybe not, they probably don't know, but if you focus on building out the steps that it's going to take for you to get into your next role and it is a stepwise process you have to lay out a plan. Lay out a plan and there may be gaps in your capabilities that will keep you from achieving the outcome of the plan. Use that as an opportunity to build. You can build new skills, new capabilities that will be directly aligned with the next opportunity, and that's an important part of self-development. So all the sources that we've looked at throughout this conversation really highlight the need for both a societal and individual approach to unemployment. Psychological impact is profound and you know it does need to be addressed at both individual and policy levels at organizations. I truly believe that.

Speaker 1: 20:44

I think institutions have a bit of a responsibility here to provide pathways towards uh, you know helping those who are impacted by a mass layoff, as an example get back on their feet as fast as possible we're trying to find ways to regain a level of autonomy, because when you, when you go to that loss, you feel like you lost, you've also lost some of your autonomy, and and that's, that's part of it. And then, as you regain that and we were talking earlier about Scarf it will start to reduce your stress.

Speaker 2: 21:15

Indeed, indeed, yeah. The support services that many organizations provide. They're trying to do as best they can. I totally understand that, but oftentimes they do fall short and, after speaking with quite a few folks who've been through mass layoffs, I think there are some commonalities in what is necessary. So support services should focus on both the tangible the financial side of the picture, but also the intangible the emotional, social, identity-related needs that an individual has. And individuals should be encouraged to embrace self-compassion and develop proactive and resilient approaches to getting back up on their feet, finding the next opportunity. And I really do believe that organizations have a responsibility in helping those impacted by organizational decisions getting back on their feet.

Speaker 1: 22:10

I think organizations need to increase I'm going to throw out a word here their emotional intelligence.

Speaker 2: 22:17

Yeah, if you can separate yourself from your work, separate your work from your purpose, you'll find that a job is a means to an end, right, and your purpose lives in you and, just like you, it adapts, changes and matures over time. Yeah, these are, these are great sentiments that were pulled from the, from the research articles that are in the show notes. But really the, the impact here is real, you know it's, and I think it's, it's cathartic to talk, to talk about it.

Speaker 1: 22:48

It's it's. You don't want to feel like you're in the boat alone going through these setbacks, and we know that we're not the only ones who go through. We didn't invent professional setbacks, we didn't create a professional setback. But if we're not open enough to talk about it, that just festers the problem. And I'll say this it's interesting because it's hard to talk about them and it's hard to talk about all the multi-stages it's sometimes hard to talk about right after, say, a few days or a week after the setback. You could have bounced back that setback could have been years ago and somebody brings it up and it might still be hard to talk about it. Usually, from personal experience, it's hard to talk about because then you start remembering what you went through during the setback and those emotional or psychological traumas that you went through, and just bringing that back up is tough. But the more we speak on it it helps us as individuals to be able to work through it and help those who are either going through it or maybe right on the precipice of going through it.

Speaker 2: 24:06

Yeah, one common belief in our society is that people's positions often reflect their merit and that can lead to a negative view of those who are unemployed. This belief can create a powerful barrier to reemployment for the individual and it can affect all aspects of their life as well. So, as we talked about earlier regarding employer bias, there are studies that have shown repeatedly that employers are less likely to interview candidates with employment gaps, regardless of their qualifications. And you know, many employers prefer passive job seekers or those who are currently employed. But, as one recruiter that I talked to over the year over the last, actually a few weeks admitted, he said you know, the sense is that if someone is good, they will be working. Just as simple as that. Right, and after, after discussing with it, he kind of went back to his logic is flawed. But you know it's, it's a social bias and it's it's crazy, but it is the way that many think and, as I said, I was in that position for many years hiring new employees and I had that bias. It kind of gets burned into you a little bit. But the social stigma, the stigma associated with unemployment, isn't limited to the workplace either, right? Unemployed individuals often experience a stigma in every area of their life Friends, colleagues, family. Even when seeking support from loved ones, we tend to hide a few of the details or whatnot.

Speaker 2: 25:40

But there's been a lot of conversation in the news recently about meritocracy, and so I want to make sure that we really dive into this a little bit as well. We really we dive into this a little bit as well, because the idea that we live in a meritocracy where effort and talent always keyword, always lead to success is deeply ingrained into our culture, and when someone becomes unemployed, it's easy to blame them for their situation instead of really recognizing the impact that the economy may have. The employer's practices. This is not one person's fault. Sometimes that is the case, but not always. More often than not, it's a combination of factors that influence their decision to leave, the decision to lay off a team, lay off an entire part of an organization, or just letting an individual go based upon lack of alignment. So it's just important to keep in mind that meritocracy is a two-way road right, and there are aspects of employers that need to be taken into account to ensure that we're giving everybody a fair shake.

Speaker 1: 27:18

The biggest thing here at the Big Letdown is we want to give you the tools to educate yourself and at the end of the day, we hope, even a moniker that helps you in your search.

Speaker 2: 27:28

Yeah, a moniker that helps you in your search. Yeah, our goal at the Big Letdown is to bring those stories forward and allow them to be openly discussed so that we can all learn from the lessons that others have already trailblazed ahead of us. Yeah, and it's as we wrap up today's episode. I want to share something powerful from from our research. You know the career transitions, even involuntary ones, can sometimes lead to unexpected positive outcomes. As an individual who's highly impacted by this, you need to be open to that as well, right? So self-reflection is a core part of this, and really figuring out what your purpose is and how you're going to achieve that purpose through your work and through your personal life as well. And to our listeners who might be going through this right now, remember you're not alone. The statistics we shared today prove that this is a common experience, even though it often feels isolating and it's something every listener and everybody should always remember.

Speaker 1: 28:41

It is OK not to be OK. Reach out for support, whether that's professional help, support groups or just talking to your friends and family, and just remember again your professional identity is not just one part of who you are. Sometimes what feels like a setback can be the beginning of something new.

Speaker 2: 29:06

So until next time, keep bouncing back. I'm TJ Raines and I'm Cary Snow.

Speaker 1: 29:12

This is the Big Letdown. You, oh, that felt good.