Cary Snow: 0:11

Welcome to the Big Letdown. On today's show, we are honored to have Dr Chanae Thomas. Dr Thomas brings a wealth of experience in adult education and organizational development. Having recently completed her PhD in organizational leadership, she's dedicated her career to unlocking human potential and transforming workplace cultures. Her innovative approaches to workforce development have helped countless organizations navigate the complexities of modern leadership. Again, we are honored to have Dr Thomas, who hails from Indianapolis, Indiana, and who is a self-proclaimed crime show junkie.

Trenae Thomas: 0:46

It's really great to be here. I am Trenay Thomas. I have been in non-profit leadership for 20 plus years. At this point, yeah, very, very mission oriented, focused in areas of workforce development, specifically adult education.

Cary Snow: 1:06

Trinae, we can't thank you enough for joining us today on our show and sharing your story and giving your insight on your big letdown.

Trenae Thomas: 1:15

Absolutely so my big letdown actually happened. It was a random Tuesday afternoon and all of a sudden on our calendars we got an emergency Zoom meeting that we all needed to attend. And I remember talking to a friend just jokingly, because there were no writings on the wall that like an emergency meeting on a Tuesday afternoon. This is odd. Are we all going to get fired? Ha ha, ha, ha, ha ha ha. Forty five minutes later we were all fired and so that was it. The joke was reality. So, yeah, we were called into a Zoom meeting and we read a script about how our project line had gotten acquired by another organization and we would need to reapply and go through an interview process in order to be able to get a job with another organization. So we weren't all just going to move forward or transfer. And then me call abruptly ended, so there was no time to ask questions or there's a bunch of shock faces, as you all can imagine. The G chats were blowing up like what in the world just happened? We just got fired on a random Tuesday afternoon, so that was kind of the like ta-da, happy, happy October, you know, as we get ready to go into the holiday season, and so from there and I guess I got to go a couple of steps back to you know how exactly I got to that particular moment so with this particular organization, I had been there for a year and a half.

Trenae Thomas: 2:56

I had come from another organization that I'd been with for almost a decade and in that particular organization, while I love the work that I did, it was very mission oriented, very driven. There began to be an erosion of trust with those in the leadership space trust that they were doing the right things for the right reasons and in the right ways and so it created a space where I was like okay, I need to venture out and see what else is available, because this disconnect is not feeling good. I appreciated the people I work with, I was grateful for the work that I was able to do and still have a lot of loyalty and respect for the people there. But it got to a place where you know, kind of like a favorite sweater, like you've worn it year after year and it feels good and as soon as the season changes you pull it out the closet and you know, but then that one year that you put it on and it's like wait, this, this isn't fitting the same anymore a little itchy, a little scratchy. Uh, you try to adapt and adjust, and is it me, you know, have I had too many donuts in the break room? You know what's going on. And so you, you know that sweater didn't fit, so I was like, okay, well, let me see what else is available.

Trenae Thomas: 4:08

And because I wasn't in a position where I was necessarily running away or needing to find a new job, you know, I really took my time and really considered what was important for me, where I wanted to be. You know what were those boxes that I had that were non-negotiable. Because, again, I love the work that I did, I love the people and I could have continued to do that, but I was just seeing too many things that I was starting to question and become uncomfortable with. So looking and seeking and waiting and also, you know, even having honest and transparent conversations in that space. So, having found the new organization, that I'm like, okay, you know what this feels. Good, this is worth leaving this place, that I'm very comfortable and respected and the mission is aligned with what I want to do to go here and so to be there for a year and a half and then get called into a zoom meeting and fired with 30 other people was like okay, well, isn't this an interesting turn of events?

Cary Snow: 5:12

And so you say it was just a mass firing.

Trenae Thomas: 5:14

It was a mass firing on a Tuesday afternoon. They read a script and walked away and I had to get on a flight that Wednesday to go present at a conference about the wonderful work that we were doing and talk about uncomfortable. I did this great presentation and at the end people are like asking questions and like, so what's next? And you know, what can we expect from you all? And I'm just like I'm fired.

TJ Rains: 5:39

I don't know what you can expect, how did that really impact you and how did it impact others? I'm sure, as you mentioned earlier, folks were lighting up each other's phones messaging, et cetera, because you're not really getting any feedback.

Cary Snow: 5:51

You're just getting told something and they walk out the door, leaving you befuddled.

Trenae Thomas: 5:58

Absolutely befuddled and so everyone was kind of caught off guard. In some situations you're like I felt the writing on the wall, but we had just went through a significant org restructure. There was a lot of emphasis on goal setting, vision setting where we're going. So people were feeling really good. We had just completed this restructure. Everyone, their positions were shifted around. So I'd been there for a year and a half and I had recently gotten a new position. This happened in October, I think. I'd started a new position in June, so there was nothing to kind of signify like something's awry here. So you know everyone was feeling really good about where we were, the restructure that happened and so when that happens, you know we were a national organization and so people were all over.

Trenae Thomas: 6:48

We did a lot of travel. So you had people who were actually traveling for work and were huddled in conference rooms somewhere. We had people who were on vacation. One of my co-workers was like I was on vacation in the backseat of an Uber with my other friends, but I was told like we have to get on the Zoom meeting. So it's just like I'm on vacation and I got fired in the back of an Uber. And I will say this. It sounds very traumatic and it was, but thinking about it I don't know how it could have been done differently, in a sense that if you tell one person, it's going to be hard for me not to tell. You know, everyone else. Hey, we're getting fired Tuesday.

TJ Rains: 7:30

Yeah, did you feel supported after it happened? Did you feel like the team did a good job of really helping to provide aftercare?

Trenae Thomas: 7:37

Yeah. So I will say they did. They opened it up to you know you can schedule meetings if you had questions. They connected us all with job coaches to help us navigate the next phase. The other organization came in and kind of gave a little bit of oversight into who they are and what they do and what their process would look like. So there were definitely some intentional steps taken to help I won't say alleviate the big letdown, so to say, but just kind of usher us into that next phase of what's possible or what it could look like.

Trenae Thomas: 8:18

But it was interesting because so this happened in October and December 1 was going to be our last day. So now you're working for an organization for two months that you just got fired from, and so that was like an interesting place to be there. I want to have fidelity for the work that I'm charged to do in this two months, but I don't know what my life is going to look like after December 1st. And it's a different feeling as opposed to when it happens one-on-one and you're like what did I do? You know that kind of like self-questioning, self-doubt Could I have done this better? Could I have done that better? Because now you have a built-in support system of everyone who's experiencing this same thing. You know, when I try to talk to my family and friends about it, whoa, what happened, and it's kind of just like we don't really know what happened. It just happened.

TJ Rains: 9:16

You're looking for something to hold on to, right, trying to figure out what caused this massive adjustment to 30 plus people's lives in an afternoon in an unscheduled meeting. I mean that is a massive, massive impact and you know, having gone through similar not at that scale but going through my own setbacks and whatnot, you're always looking for something to hold on to. How long did it take for you to begin planning and plotting for your next move, and what steps did you take to really move past the idea that, ok, my life has been disrupted, I have to figure out a new path. What is that path?

Trenae Thomas: 9:54

Yeah. So I think the moving forward process was a little bit suspended, because so now we have this other organization who's acquired our work and we were told that the positions wouldn't be the same. So it wasn't that we were applying for you know our positions to continue on our work. But we had the opportunity. Everyone was granted an initial interview with the new organization. So there was kind of a suspension, you know, in a sense, of what's next. Because now you're like, well, there's this organization and do I want to go there and will they want me? You know, I've heard people go through acquisitions where the people were actually acquired. So it was just like, well, yeah, I'm going to go and you know, we'll see what happens. You know, maybe I'll start looking from there. But our process was there's this new organization and there's no guarantee that they're going to want you, and so that kind of leaves you in this place of limbo, because now you're waiting to go through their process so that you can really make an informed decision about what does come next. Because you know, we weren't looking for jobs, we weren't expecting this to happen. So you don't know what that landscape is currently. You're just like, okay, I'm going to need a job and this is a viable solution. You know that's presented to me and so I think that is the point where, for me, I really had to do some questioning and really, for me, operate out of faith. So I did get the opportunity to have a first interview. I had three interviews with the new organization. They offered me a position which was higher than the position that I had. Do I want this?

Trenae Thomas: 11:42

During that process I got the opportunity to ask good questions about them and also kind of being at the space in my life where I knew what's important to me in the work setting. If we go back to my job before that, I started seeing some things that I wasn't comfortable with and I understood that I was at a place now where that was not an option for me to just be at a place, to be at a place. There are key things that are critical to my well-being, how I perform. I'm a very mission-oriented person and so with this new organization I'm like well, you know they're offering me a position, the pay is good, like all of those. You know, surface-level checkboxes were there, but in asking and going through the process and asking questions through the interview process, there was just still this disconnect. I was like I don't. I don't know if this is the place for me at this time in my life and I could have accepted the position, but I didn't like the why I would be accepting that position. I would be accepting it out of fear that there was nothing else available, out of scarcity, like I.

Trenae Thomas: 12:52

It's October, the end of the year, like you know. This is a horrible time to be looking, you know, for a new job and I didn't want to be driven into making a decision from those spaces. So I made the personal decision, taking some autonomy or being empowered in this space, like this. Really bad thing happened to me. But now I have a choice. I can just go with it and take this job and work for this org and you know also search and you know see what else is available, but have the security of this job that I don't really want at this organization that doesn't really feel aligned with my values and my mission. Or I can say no and hedge my bets and, you know, see what's out there. And so I did make the choice to say thank you. But no thank you and you know, go forth and kind of see what's available, spend some time engaging in some professional development.

Trenae Thomas: 13:53

I was finishing a PhD program at the time, and so I was like you know what this will give a great opportunity to really lean in to the end of this process, as opposed to just getting it done. I can really, you know, kind of sit with it and engage in a meaningful way so that I'm able to get something from it. And also, you know, this was the first time in gosh 30 years almost 30 years that I not have a job, or two jobs or three jobs. It allowed me an opportunity for some intentional reflection, as opposed to, you know, when we're constantly going and we're just taking the next thing and you know I got bills to pay, I need to work, I need to work. You know, as adults we don't often get those opportunities to really assess and reflect and make meaningful decisions. And so I was blessed to have the time to just say you know what, let me really move forward with intention and in full awareness.

TJ Rains: 14:56

That's a wonderful way to respond to uncertainty. Right After that meeting where you said thank you but no thank you, I mean, what you had in front of you was a big question mark. The unknown was ahead of you what path you're going to set for yourself. That's an interesting place to be and it does offer a time for introspection. So, after your thank you but no thank you conversation, what was the next step that you took to kind of get to know yourself a little bit better and how you want to move forward given this new change in your life?

Trenae Thomas: 15:29

Yeah. So first of all I freaked out and I was like did I do what? I think I just did Okay.

Cary Snow: 15:35

Oh my God, what did I just do?

Trenae Thomas: 15:37

I really stepped in it now.

Cary Snow: 15:40

The band is officially made.

Trenae Thomas: 15:41

After that, you know, I consider myself to be kind of in a slingshot season where you know, with the slingshot you gotta kind of pull back before you can propel forward. And so just really taking that step back and saying, okay, you know, trinae, you're out here now you are, you are amongst the unemployed, what's important to you, you know, what are the things that truly matter in what you're going to look for next. And again there's those surface things you know, like what is what salary? Do I need to make? Um, what you know? Just really asking those what's important things. Do I need this salad? Like, is that absolutely necessary? Or what would you do for a lesser salary? What are the issues that are important to you, what is the space that you want to be in, how do you want to contribute? And just really empowering myself to dare to reset.

Trenae Thomas: 16:44

There's no straightforward path at this point. There's no going back to the place I love. I'm fired from here. I'm probably burn this bridge at this new over Like thanks, but no thanks. I don't want your little job.

TJ Rains: 16:56

Every day of unemployment. I mean it just ticks down right. I mean you kind of have this clock and you're like you know when is this going to end? When am I going to connect with the right organization, when am I going to connect with the right opportunity? And you know, it's a really tough period I found during my time in that space. It was very easy for me to just step aside and just be like all right, I'm just going to, I'm going to try to figure things out on my own for a bit. But then eventually I started really looking for resources to help. Were there any resources, people, services, whatever may have been available at the time that helped you in your process of discernment?

Trenae Thomas: 17:37

One I definitely have to say faith. You know faith is something that guides me in all things. So really being intentional and operating from that space and, you know, cultivating those spiritual disciplines that have been important to me. But you know they kind of fall by the wayside when you're in the grind. So I really did put a lot of intention in some stillness and again, just those spiritual practices to kind of help guide and govern myself and really be centered on why I am where I am, because that also ultimately helped give me the confidence to make the decision to say no thank you, the organization, you know, like I said previously, they provided us with job coaches and so at first I was like I don't need this lady.

Trenae Thomas: 18:23

Like what is, what is she going to tell me? Like how's she going to help me? I got a resume, like you know what is this going to be about? So, full transparency. I hate updating and doing resumes. And so the job coach was like you know, take resumes. I did really good. So, yeah, okay, you know whatever. So I reached out and she did do a really good for samantha. So I started meeting with her regularly and I will say this this yeah, and I shared with this with her at the time um, because again, initially, I'm like what is she going to tell me? That I don't know. Like I, I'm, I'm a workforce professional. What is she going to tell me?

Trenae Thomas: 19:03

A little bit of arrogance there, perhaps, but in meeting with her regularly, someone who is a professional in that space was very helpful to my emotional well-being in the sense that, you know, your support system around you were just like get a job, what are you going to do? What are you going to do? You got to work and it's like well, but I want to be intentional, because I made the decision to be in this space. So how dare I just take you know what's available. So someone who is a professional in that space you know I didn't necessarily need the job coaching Like well, this is how you do an interview and you know these are the questions you ask.

Trenae Thomas: 19:40

But you know, just to be able to talk candidly with someone about the search and who understood um cause again you're talking to when you're talking to your, your family, your support systems, they may not have looked for a job and how long, and you know they don't understand the apps or the. You know the different challenges. So someone who understood that and could kind of help you navigate was really helpful to me. Someone to look over your resume or say, hey, I checked your LinkedIn. You know, put this, do that. So that kind of technical guidance that you don't think is necessary. But it is a very different job market than what I had previously been a part, especially when there's a difference. When you're looking for a job and you have a job, because it's just like you know, there's no rush, there's no right. But when you don't have a job and you're looking for a job, it takes on a whole different tone and tenor. You know what I mean.

Cary Snow: 20:41

You know when you know everybody says it's always easier when you have a job. And I always tell people when you have a job, you have something distracting you. You are working, you're doing your job, you're doing your everyday stuff distracting you. You are working, you're doing your job, you're doing your everyday stuff. When you don't have a job, it's like you feel every second that ticks by. As soon as you click that send button, you submit that resume. You're like when are they going to reply?

Cary Snow: 21:02

And it just feels like time has just slowed down and you can just don't. You can feel every second of waiting. I'm stealing the slingshot metaphor, by the way. I've never heard that and I'm just going to go ahead and document that. You said that, but I'm stealing it from you. But because I think that sums up change kind of what we go through, you have to step back or pull back, as you said, and take aim before you move forward. So how long were you in that, say, pullback period before you decided it was time to, you know, move forward?

Trenae Thomas: 21:37

So, honestly, I probably waited for about six months before actually really jumping into the job search. A large part of that was where I was with school. You know I was like, okay, well, let me focus on getting into a good place with this really big thing and getting this done. I considered it truly a blessing to be able to have the space to focus, because that had not been the experience for the first five years. You know that I was earning this degree. So I'm like, okay, I am blessed to be able to have this space to just focus and get this done. And so in doing that, I'm just like you know what, I can wait, I can, you know, just enjoy Because, again, as adults we don't get this time to just sit and think and be intentional with our next move. So, after about five or six months and again, you know, during this time I'm meeting with the job coach, I'm looking at what's available to kind. Again, you know, during this time I'm meeting with the job coach, I'm looking at what's available to kind of. You know, if there's anything that I absolutely love, you know I didn't want to let it pass, but I'm doing the work on self building connections, having informal conversations with people, and then it was like, okay, well, one bank account is depleting and so it's time to just kind of take aim and start moving forward a little differently. Uh, and so I, I got out there, um, you know, I got some immediate callbacks, and so what was interesting? And I had a couple of situations where um offers were made and it still wasn't like, yeah, I really, I really want this. And so then that became interesting too, cause I'm like I don't have a job. How can I just say, you know, no to these things? But then I had to. You know, that's where that operating and that faith came in, cause I'm like, well, I didn't turn down this other situation, just to take, you know, whatever was offered to me. And so I would be doing that, that moment of disservice, if I just said, okay, now, because it's a little bit scarier and you know, this is what's offered. You know, let me just take that.

Trenae Thomas: 23:45

The one position I did say you know what I? This isn't just this, this position isn't for me in this season of life. And that was also a defining moment in this journey because, again, you know, talking about that slingback, it wasn't a position. That was really where I wanted to be, but it was doing good work, it was doing things that I cared about, but I had to really kind of hedge my bet. I think that that's what allowed me to see I am at a different space in life and really tap into what my worth was and the value that I know I could bring into a situation.

Trenae Thomas: 24:20

And that particular job didn't really allow me to maximize that or just even the trajectory. And it's not even about you know, title or salary or position, but it was just like I don't think this allows me to bring my full self or represent the way I would like to at this in my career. And so that was like, okay, well, now that you're making these decisions and you're kind of really seeing you know where you want to be, going back to that slingshot and that aim, like well, what are you aiming at now? And so then my questions got even deeper, even though it wasn't just about salary or title or industry. It was just like, okay, what's really important to you, what moves you beyond? This is the type of environment that I want to be in, or this is the industry. It's like, what is that purpose is really what it came down to like. What do you feel like you ultimately bring into the situation, and how are you looking to be aligned within that purpose?

TJ Rains: 25:18

Once you get to that point it's very poignant, but it is a challenge to really break through, to have the personal understanding of your position and where you are and what you want to do and how you want to contribute to society, let alone, you know, just accepting the first thing that's offered. What we're starting to see here are the stages of laying out the design of your future, right. So, if you don't mind sharing you mentioned a few points you have to take a good introspective look into your purpose. So, in that process, what did you define as your purpose and how are you aligning towards that next great opportunity?

Trenae Thomas: 25:56

Yeah. So I had to take an assessment of what are those moments that sparked joy, like what were those personal successes or like those feel good moments for me, and I realized that in everything I did, I really enjoy when I'm able to develop others or create access and opportunities for other individuals. And that sounds very generic and bland, like, okay, you want to develop other people, you want to. But it was freeing when I really drilled it down to like the basics of what I enjoyed doing, because now I'm like, oh well, I can do that in a variety of places. You know I don't have to be so laser focused on. It needs to be this type of organization or these are the roles that I can look for, and I even talked with my job coach about that Cause I'm like you know what I just really want anything that allows me to create access and opportunity for marginalized populations or development opportunities for those who are serving people in marginalized situations, and so that kind of opened up the fields a little bit more for me as up to like, you know what I want and how I can contribute to that.

Trenae Thomas: 27:06

Again, it was freeing because it was not those limitations of what you need to be a director here or you need to do, or it needs to be this organization. And it allowed me to not search for again title or company but to really be intentional and, looking at the work, that was going to be best for me. So, yeah, the process was that stillness, that reflection of when did I feel good? What were those happy professional moments that I've had? What made those happy moments for me? You know what were those successes and why, and that's what it was. Anytime I'm able to help develop someone else, whether it was in the scope of my work or not, if it was setting up a new programming or not, and so that has guided me to some opportunities that, like boy, I did not see that coming.

TJ Rains: 28:00

Don't search for titles, search for impact, right? I mean, you're looking for a connection to not only a great position but an organization that you can really connect with, and that's what I found to be kind of a key point to always fall back to right. If you know your purpose and you know the purpose of the organization and the mission of the organization, you can tell if there's an alignment pretty quickly. Take everything into account, take an inventory and see what you need to be successful in your next role and start interviewing them just as they're interviewing you. It's more of a connection than anything.

Cary Snow: 28:32

I mean I have to agree with TJ on several points about that. You know, I had to say no to a job as well. It was the first time in my professional career and it was soul-shattering, because you know you want a job, you're trying to get out there, but, as you said, it didn't align with what I was trying to do. It didn't speak to me and that was the first time my gut really screamed to me like this is not the direction you want to go.

Cary Snow: 28:56

Sometimes you've got to be courageous, especially if you are coming out of this letdown and you're trying to move forward. You don't want to settle, you want to give yourself that space. When you were moving forward and while you were finding your true north, were you ever worried that the answer might be outside the realm of where you were working? Were you dedicated years of your experience, of your life coming out? Because for me, when I was looking and I was in higher education and I was reevaluating and I was like what happens if my north is not an education, and were you ever worried about that?

Trenae Thomas: 29:29

I don't think I worried about that when I focused on the work. I welcomed that it might be in a different space, in a different capacity than what was familiar to me, but also became more aware of kind of the connectedness. Looking back on all of the positions I had and going back to those like happy moments, like seeing that thread throughout. It was liberating in a sense, because when it first happened I worked for not-for-profit larger organizations for a while and so there there are only so many you know what I mean that that are national, and so I'm constantly looking at the websites for for those places what's available here. We're constantly clicking for those career openings in those spaces and once I realized like no, you can, you can do good work anywhere Again that that liberating will nap like, okay, well, let's, let's open this playing field up a little bit more.

Trenae Thomas: 30:33

A friend of mine who's been really supportive of me during this process would just be like, hey, you're out here in the deep now, and so, being in the deep, I'm like, okay, let's open it up, let's see you know what's available, let's keep an open mind. So, yeah, I don't think worry more so welcoming of what's possible.

TJ Rains: 30:56

I want to jump into a specific part of your journey that I think we all share. Having gone through pretty rigorous education, Talk to us a bit about your PhD work and how you mentioned that it was a good distraction. Up front, At least that was my interpretation. It was a bit of a distraction allowed you to really refocus your energy out of the negative and into the positive work that you were doing with your research. Speak to us about your research. How did that help to clarify or just create a new lens for looking at this job search?

Trenae Thomas: 31:28

So my research was based on relational leadership, and relational leadership is not just about do you relate to the people that you work with, but it's understanding the interconnectedness of everything Right, and how we all work together and different pieces need to come together, and also organizational culture and the psychological impact, and so how. That kind of helped me to find my focus. When we talk about, you know, being open to new opportunities or new spaces, it's understanding the connectedness and all of the work in other places and so going a little bit deeper and understanding that everything is connected. So when you look at certain organizations and you're thinking, like, well, I want this position, it's understanding well, like well, how, how can this position influence that position? Or how does that, you know, connect or relate? And so it really helps me again kind of expand my view of what was possible to achieve the outcomes that I wanted. I'd been in leadership positions previously. You tend to think, well, at this level of leadership, this is how I influence X and you know it's this perfect formula. But through the research I'm like, no, it's all kind of intertwined and interconnected. How do we bring like more alignment and understanding that you know you can get into this role and that you know can pull some levers here, there, et cetera. So that's how the research really helped me out In thinking about the psychological wellbeing that the environments that we are in have a huge impact on us.

Trenae Thomas: 33:02

It really allows me to ask better questions in the interviewing process and keep a focus on that environment and what I need from an organization. I'm blessed and privileged to be at a phase in my life where I'm well aware of what my worth is and what my value is and what I bring. That's different as opposed to, you know, when we first graduate from undergrad, to you know when we first graduate from undergrad or you know, entering into the workforce to get your first professional job. You're just like I just want somebody to choose me. I just want somebody to choose me and all the emphasis is on you know, them choosing you and you know. But now I'm at a space in life where I'm well aware of the value that I bring and so now it's not just well, I want you all to choose me, it's, we need to choose each other. I get to show up authentically as me aware of what it is that I bring. I have questions for you all. This is not just to like pick me, pick me and we're good. I have questions for you all. What is your culture like? What are your leadership behaviors? How do you vision set All of those things that I really focused on through the research really show up in my questions and interviewing and wanting to make sure that it's a successful match, because I'm not.

Trenae Thomas: 34:18

That stuff is not so important when you're just like hey, I need a salary, I need to pay my bills, I need a salary, I need to pay my bills, I need a job, I need to make X amount of money. So that's the social contract that you engage with the organization. Are you going to pay me this much? Is that check going to come every other week? Cool, that's all I need from you guys. We're good to go, but now I'm in a different space where it's not just about that. There are other things. As I want to contribute and be my best self, there are other things that I need in order to be able to do that, and so that's that's where I am now.

Cary Snow: 34:48

This was the first time in almost 30 years you hadn't been working a job. So it gave you the space to say you know, I can kind of repoint myself now and re kind of define what I want to do and I think key to what you, what you were talking about, is knowing your worth and knowing your value. But again, you have to be honest with yourself, Almost like you got to do like a SWOT analysis of yourself to understand that.

TJ Rains: 35:11

I mean you're making a commitment to an organization for an extended period of time, be it maybe six months, maybe a decade, who knows? Right. And so you know you want to make sure that you're starting out on the right foot. You know, not all organizations are created equally. I so you know you want to make sure that you're starting out on the right foot. You know not all organizations are created equally. I mean, you can really look at a lot of different factors of alignment. You know, looking at the mission, the vision, the goals and the objectives that you're going to be working towards, are those aligned with your personal mission and purpose? Right, if you don't have those questions in mind, as you're evaluating an opportunity, you're setting yourself up for maybe some letdown in the future.

Trenae Thomas: 35:46

I think one thing that my big letdown told me is that you can do a lot for an organization. You could work endless hours, et cetera, et cetera, all of the things. You can be the best employee and bad stuff happens. You know what I mean, and so sure it really helps me kind of understand, like just that different perspective of like wanting to be in this space where you feel good about offering yourself up and what you're getting back from it so now you're you're prepping for your next launch and you're you're out in the field.

TJ Rains: 36:24

So now you're prepping for your next launch and you're out in the field. What do you think of this job market?

Trenae Thomas: 36:28

It's very different. I don't think that there's been a lot of developing with human resources and how they like they've changed processes. You know we don't do paper applications anymore or we use this system for applications or we use these websites. So, like the processes have developed, shifted over time, I don't think how they engage with those processes have undergone the necessary development and you know I've had some positions that are just like soon as I hit send, it's like oh, thank you for your application, the role has been filled, or we're going another day. I'm like I just I hit send.

Cary Snow: 37:09

Literally hit send on an application and an hour and a half later I got a rejection email. I got a thanks with no thanks email in an hour and a half and I'm like did you really even look at it? Did you even read it?

Trenae Thomas: 37:19

Right, right, like how did that happen? And that's also where the job coach came in, because she's like oh well, you know these automatic systems like they look for different words and you know, so we work the email differently or whatever, and so that was fine, you know, you understand that. But then there's a lot of you know, even going back to the sense of when you don't have a job, things hit a little harder. So I've been in the interview process for a position that I really want. I feel like everything has gone quite well. We did the final interviews, great feedback, everything. It's been about three weeks now and I haven't heard anything.

TJ Rains: 37:57

All of a sudden, you're in this period, this blackout period, where, like, do I reach out to them? Are they going to reach out to me, what's going to happen? And sometimes and it has happened, you know you don't hear back. Transactional nature of the application process and that pre-selection process is causing some really interesting dynamics in this new job market.

Trenae Thomas: 38:20

Yeah, yeah.

TJ Rains: 38:21

It's crazy, crazy times.

Trenae Thomas: 38:23

Yeah, because you know, again, I've had interviews where I'm like I don't, I'm going to help you all out because you're asking me the right thing.

Cary Snow: 38:33

Let me give you a script.

Trenae Thomas: 38:35

I don't feel comfortable that you're going to make the right decision based on the questions that you're asking. So it is. So. That's why I say, like the, the processes etc. Have shifted, but I don't think that those who are managing those processes have actually had the necessary development. And also, we take for granted you know we get these hiring managers that come into the conversation and they're not hr professionals, um, and so no one has taken the time to train them on. Well, these are the questions that you should ask. Or even you know what is it that you're looking for? Let us develop some questions that'll help you kind of assess, you know, if this person is a good candidate for that.

Trenae Thomas: 39:17

So the relational aspects, the transactional aspects of it has been really interesting.

Trenae Thomas: 39:23

And then I have had some situations where people are just like I like you and I want you to have this job, and that feels good when you're the person that it's happening to. I have a situation now where you know they're like well, we posted the job so that you'll know we're serious, but we really want you to take the job. And I'm like, oh, this really sucks for the people who see this posting this job was great, but you know they already have a person in mind and I'm sure I've been that person, you know with, with other positions, and so there's no. You know, when I first started working back in the 1900s, you know you used to go ahead and fill out an application and you know you put on your good bun down shirt and you go, meet the people and smile nicely, you know, turn in your application and get that face to face connect, you know, and now it's just like I don't even know where this job is. I'm just like at home in my PJs, you know.

TJ Rains: 40:27

At a certain point, I think everybody comes to realize it's like I just need to pump out applications and that's just. I can't count the number of times where you know I'd get a call back from a recruiter. I'm like, okay, I think this is this for this job, you know, I mean, it just creates all these, all these little. It's kind of like dating a thousand people.

Cary Snow: 40:44

You're speed these little. It's kind of like dating a thousand people. You're right, you're basically speed dating through these relationships. And I know people who make excel spreadsheets who when they apply for jobs, so they so when they do get that call back, they're like, yeah, this was oh got it. Yeah, I just had to check the spreadsheet to refresh their memory on what job and when I applied for this absolutely have a spreadsheet and I have a ranking of like.

Trenae Thomas: 41:03

Do I really want the star, or was I just applying for it?

Cary Snow: 41:07

It adds a ranking to it.

Trenae Thomas: 41:10

I have a ranking system. I absolutely have a spreadsheet.

TJ Rains: 41:16

If you had one piece of advice to offer somebody who's in a similar situation, what would it be?

Trenae Thomas: 41:23

You know, really check what your assumptions are about yourself, about work, about you know where you want to work, how you want work to be done. Be open minded in that aspect and unafraid to question. Question yourself. Question you know in the interview process. Question you know, when you see a job that looks good, what about that job looks good for you? So asking questions to come to a better understanding of self-worth and how to best align that in a professional setting.

TJ Rains: 42:05

I hope you all enjoyed this as much as I did. Thank you so much, Trené, for your time and sharing your story. Please check back here in the next couple weeks. We're constantly looking for new guests and we are recording on a biweekly basis, so every two weeks we'll be able to deliver new, fresh content, new stories of resilience. Two weeks we'll be able to deliver new, fresh content, new stories of resilience.

Cary Snow: 42:46

Subscribe to the Big Letdown wherever you find your podcasts.

TJ Rains: 42:48

I'm still on that slingshot metaphor.

Cary Snow: 42:49

That was good, that was good. Let me type that one. That's a good one. That's a good one. You.